1-877-UNITY08

How to kill off an independent political movement

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  • posted by mgrannis on June 20, 2024 - 11:03am
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    If I were over at the DNC or the RNC right now, here's what I'd be doing.

    I'd have some sophomore interns -- it hardly matters whether they're college sophomores or high school sophomores -- monitor this site very closely. Whenever anyone posted an idea for political reform -- or even a comment on someone else's idea for political reform -- the sophomores would be under instructions to disagree with it in the most disrespectful, know-it-all tones they could manage. Naturally, they would do this anonymously. And the point would not be to influence the actual substantive debate in any way; indeed, I might have two anonymous sophomore interns sitting in adjacent cubicles and flaming each other. The object would be to convince anyone taking a look at Unity08 that it will just be the same old politics -- people constantly ignoring big questions of principle to focus on petty resentments; ignoring the choices we face for the future so that they could revisit quarrels long past. This, I would reason, would be likely to kill off Unity08 in its infancy by playing to despair rather than hope -- tapping into the power of the "dark side," if you will.

    Are they doing this? I don't know, but after spending a little time on the Shoutbox, it looks to me like either they are doing this to us or we are doing it to ourselves. Why? Why all the anonymous trashing of people with whom we (presumably) share some interest in reform? It's of course quite healthy for us to have a variety of different views about any given issue, and even different views about which issues matter. But it seems to me our discussions at this point should be driven by a desire to find common ground. Finding things to disagree about was easy enough without Unity08; it is the opportunity to find things to *agree* about that is so precious here.

    We can do this. We can clean out the barn any time we want, because it's our barn. But the secret ingredient, the one that has always been missing from independent politics, is cohesiveness. If we can't make "unity" a reality rather than just a clever name, we'll go nowhere.

    So my plea, to everyone who cares about this movement, is to engage at the level of ideas. Leave the snarkiness to the people who've managed to lower our level of political discourse so far. Let's do this better, and let's start by treating each other well.

    Comments

    SMH on June 26, 2024 - 9:02pm

    Johnny Reb is winning the fight!
    Earn Snyder on June 26, 2024 - 8:53pm

    You don't suppose that the Union leadership will be living side-by-side with the johnny Reb's would you? Ever check out their salaries and their pensions?

    Earn Snyder on June 26, 2024 - 8:53pm

    Be clear those that submit feedback that ranks people or any class or extreme of people cannot win in this fight... There is no argument the battle lines have been drawn! Our labor unions is all that stands between Lincoln's union and importing slaves once again... they are trying to sneak in as "Immigration laws" which is actually imported "temporary" slave labor to destroy what is left of the unions in this nation... and give control back to Johny Reb and his plantation family, who today are those that don't work and live off of stock dividends from corporations that crack the whips out of sight out of mind... ouch! www.appyp.com/fix_main.html

    SMH on June 26, 2024 - 8:25pm

    ECONOMIC CALL TO ARMS/ Minimum Wage To A Living Wage
    Kirk Polizzi on June 25, 2024 - 9:10pm

    I take issue with your statement: "The best way to move people out of poverty is to give them a wage they can live on"

    On the contraty. the BEST way to move people out of poverty is to induce people with ambition, good personal habits, and valuable skill sets. "Give them a wage" would do it, but would make the nation poorer". The amount of their wage should correlate with the value of their work, anything else is a distortion of reality.

    Bill713 on June 26, 2024 - 8:03pm

    Please open a forum on your issue instead of invading other forums. Just register if you haven't and put it out there; it's easy.

    Bill"for what we are together"

    Kirk Polizzi on June 25, 2024 - 9:10pm

    MINIUMUM WAGE TO A LIVING WAGE

    The best way to move people out of poverty is to give them a wage they can live on. The nation’s minimum wage is not doing it. It lost its effectiveness some time ago. Like all government statistics from unemployment rates to inflation rates, once again, they are just that, numbers. We’ve heard that inflation has been under control since the mid 1980’s. I ask, “Compared to what”? Today, twenty years after hyperinflation was put under control, the prices for everything are all higher. The price for rents, for food, healthcare, fuel for our automobiles and homes, all are higher. At the same time that all of this is happening, the incomes of middle class Americans has dragged far behind.

    In other words, don’t tell the American people that there’s no inflation, they know better, they are living it everyday. I call on the federal government to do away with the national minimum wage, and replace it with a national living wage. This wage would be indexed for inflation, compared to the increase each Jan. 1st, for Social Security recipients. A yearly increase in the living wage may be too much of a pro-wage solution, but certainly a bi-yearly increase can be afforded.

    For too long, the wages of hardworking people have been too low, at the bare minimum. The wage has not been increased since 1997, and this has forced individual states to adopt their own minimum wage. Once again, the Republicans have gotten their way, the easy way. By ignoring low-income Americans’ wages at the national level, they forced the states to take control of a problem that is a national problem.

    Replacing the minimum wage, with a national living wage, increased every other year, indexed with the inflation rates, will lift many Americans out of poverty, and give them a piece of the American economic pie. No American, who puts in an honest days work, should have to work for the bare minimum for their labors. They deserve better then what we are presently offering them, which is little or nothing.

    Kirk Polizzi
    Chillicothe, IL

    SMH on June 25, 2024 - 8:26pm

    Anon guy will be identified as SMH in future posts. I believe we are all making progress. In Six-Sigma methodologies, the visualization stage is always the most difficult. Keep up the good work and keep the concepts and ideas coming.

    Bill713 on June 25, 2024 - 8:19pm

    Seeing what is being recorded across the blogs and forums, as many on this topic are; you can see where agreement is taking shape. Let's start recording those. If we don't the wedgers will flood the place and confuse the issues.

    Bill"for what we are together"

    Slick_Gecko on June 25, 2024 - 7:29pm

    Nlowell has it right, guys. Manufacturing has left the United States---we simply can't compete with the cheap labor that China and the third world provides for those jobs. What we *should* be focusing on is high tech---afterall, we have the stongest higher education research facilities in the world (Universities). Remember, computers saved the U.S. economy from the 1970s onward (manufacturing has been disappearing for that long)--we should be researching into something new in order to keep ourselves competitive. Biotech? Semi-conductors? Who knows. This is where we should be throwing out new ideas, instead of hankering for the glory days of old.

    I think, personally, this means devoting much more time and energy to the sciences and mathematics in this country. Before China outpaces us in that too--and we are left, as Anonymous put it yesterday, as a nation of hairdressers and other, petty, service jobs that produce nothing.

    johngelles on June 25, 2024 - 2:06pm

    What the Web Team writes makes a lot of sense.

    We have a forum, we are on it, to improve focus.

    There is a topic "Core Problem" that should solve some of what's gotten out of hand.

    But the contents of Core Problem is already uncompressable -- maybe.

    Anyway I'm going there to try to finish the discussion. I hope the stuff on Christopher Nulty's blog can also be switched to Core Problem -- or at least Polizzi and the Anon guy.

    John Gelles
    http://unity08ws.wikispaces.com
    http://www.tiea.us
    Human rights and how to pay for them are key to a livable world.

    U08 Web Team on June 25, 2024 - 1:34pm

    We have several moderators on the web team that read all threads and try to keep things civil.

    As for moderating the ideas themselves; the Shoutbox was designed with the voting system to encourage the most popular threads and ideas to rise to the top. We feel this is a better approach than giving a single individual the power to influence the course of discussion.

    We're always open to suggestions on how to better facilitate discussion on the site, and we're always keeping our eyes on the blog comments and Shoutbox for new ideas about the site and its content.

    Thanks for your continued participation in the feedback process!

    johngelles on June 25, 2024 - 2:33am

    .
    Moving from Disunity to engagement at the level of Ideas would mean we had developed a method of collaboration that minimized friction between egos. It would also mean that the scope of our ideas was downsized to a readable Core of Ideas.

    Where would that core be developed? On this site which was already so full it's unreadable? On a page on this site that was moderated? Nobody likes a moderator -- especially one that can promote interests that are not disclosed.

    Jennifer and John G. have tried to get collaboration off site. But that is not a good idea. An on-site moderator is what is needed -- but one whose work will earn our trust.

    If a moderated page to develop a small scope core to enable engagement at the level of ideas is not here on site in two days, let's take it off site for a day or two until the founders take the hint.

    Take it to
    unity08ws.wikispaces.com

    After a day or two more, it can come back to this site.

    John Gelles
    http://unity08ws.wikispaces.com
    http://www.tiea.us
    Human rights and how to pay for them are key to a livable world.

    Anonymous on June 25, 2024 - 1:58am

    People argue online because that's what they are used to. The idea is to promote your own ideas, not learn from each other or work toward common solutions. You don't need sabotage from the Dems and Repubs, people have been doing this online for years. Calling it a shoutbox doesn't help, nor does letting people post anonymously.

    johngelles on June 25, 2024 - 1:51am

    1. How to win the war.
    2. How to regain manufacturing preeminence.
    3. How to raise the American standard of living to again be the best it can be.

    Win the war by mobilizing a full national effort to build and pay for the drones, robot bomb exploders, and high tech identification (freiend or foe) systems that can win the war and frustrate a clever enemy whose soldiers cannot hide. Simultaneously support full employment in Iraq and Afghanistan to give their young people a chance to appreciate freedom.

    Regain manufacturing preeminence by subsidies as necessary to train and employ in America everyone willing to work in the industries we will need in the future to remain leader of a free world that can stay free.

    Raise the American standard of living by early educational opportunity, small magnet schools everywhere, national service opportunity in military and civilian programs that leave no one behind and make sense to the youth whom the future depends on, and by supplementing markets with functional finance as necessary to pay with production for all we need that would otherwise be out of reach.

    John Gelles
    http://unity08ws.wikispaces.com
    http://www.tiea.us
    Human rights and how to pay for them are key to a livable world.

    Anonymous on June 24, 2024 - 10:19pm

    Manufacturing Has Left the Building
    nlowell on June 24, 2024 - 10:12pm

    nlowell, In conflict with your previous posts which i agreed wholeheartly with i disagree on your stance on manufacturing. Manufacturing generates wealth. Manufacturing and assembly assures both the low and high skilled a job a job at a decent wage. Manufacturing products is a balance of trade issue. We need it. We can't have a vibrant and growing economy giving hair cuts to each other.

    nlowell on June 24, 2024 - 10:12pm

    I don't think we're going to get manufacturing back. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

    Personally, I think we'd be better off talking about what will be replacing manufacturing in our economy.

    Anonymous on June 24, 2024 - 10:01pm

    CNN gets the rap for being too far left (just look at the average anchor on that show) and "most trusted name in news"...

    Fox News- "Fair and balanced" gets the rap of being possibly too far right

    So where does that leave NBC?

    And why is it most people ONLY watch the evening news, if they only do that?

    See what I'm saying about the media's distrust and why people distrust them?

    Anonymous on June 24, 2024 - 9:08pm

    Our Failure to Avoid Acrimony and Success in promoting Disunity
    johngelles on June 24, 2024 - 8:26pm

    For once I can agree with Mr. Gelles. However I would, with his permission, like to expand on his three suggestions.

    1. How to win the war.

    The threat of rogue terrorist organizations with an uncivilized agenda must be explained to us and the world. Human progress can not go forward if we must divert all our energies, good will, and treasure to combat this negative force. It's the poor of the world that suffer most.
    2. How to regain manufacturing preeminence.

    Primary and foremost we must regain our capacity in research, science, and engineering. Forty years ago, americans were playing golf on the moon, and now we cant even get a shuttle launched much less back in one piece.

    3. How to raise the American standard of living to again be the best it can be.

    Much more difficult and complex. Its multifacited. Others here have commented on education, immigration, unions, taxes, and out-of-control budgets. All contribute to the problem and solutions. These and many more can be compiled by the good partcipants here.

    johngelles on June 24, 2024 - 8:26pm

    What are the top three issues we should discuss that the major parties will not?

    1. How to win the war.
    2. How to regain manufacturing preeminence.
    3. How to raise the American standard of living to again be the best it can be.

    Keely on June 24, 2024 - 3:55pm

    My goodness, the irony of the comments that have been made in regards to this subject is making me sick.

    Stop bickering, stop picking at stupid stuff, and stop engaging in conversations that go nowhere.

    Ugh!

    Bill713again on June 23, 2024 - 7:45pm

    An Independent movement must have a core group that can focus discussion
    toward a clearly preceived Message that is the unifying element of Unity08. A slogan, a phrase, or an icon that concisely draws us to the center where we have so much in common.

    When I am addressing a topic that I think is working to a sensible center I use the name you see. When I engage a topic I see as a wedge issue intruding in this process I go in Anon to point out the lack of centerist and common interest. But I miss not having an articulated Message to motivate the discussion toward unity.

    Anonymous on June 23, 2024 - 12:49pm

    Anonymous is the default and it is just easier. I have seen several names that I could say someone might think it was me and there is no way to prevent me from using any name already in use.
    Besides some day when I am running for president I don't want someone saying remember what you said in that blog...
    (No, I have no intention of running and am not currently affiliated with anyone holding or running for public office.)
    I agree it might help avoid some confusion but I am just brainstorming and responding.

    mgrannis on June 23, 2024 - 12:15pm

    To the "Anonymous" of June 23, 2024 - 11:30am:

    Thanks for the reply. To be clear, my post this morning was directed to the other "Anonymous," and I assumed he or she was a different person from you.

    As an aside, I trust you "Anonymouses" have good reasons for not wanting to use your real names, but it would sure make things easier if you would give yourselves pseudonyms. Even if you just use your initials, as DWB did on this topic and others, you're pretty doggone anonymous that way. Just a suggestion.

    Anonymous on June 23, 2024 - 11:30am

    mgrannis,
    I made the first non-PC comment but it was another anonymous who urged "get past it..."
    When you wrote "you seem to suggest that the RNC is heavily influenced by Nazis." I did not say that's a lie or call you a liar. What I was trying to suggest is that they would employ every political strategy that would give them power and control.
    I did try to find a link to support my comment regarding the protests after the Florida fiasco but I could not find the picture with the accompanying identifications of the individuals. I did find one picture that was on a questionable site and didn't name names so I didn't provide it.
    I did not intend to flame you and I do not know if your response was a collective one but I do have no affiliation with the DNC. Although I have no way to verify that truth.
    :)

    mgrannis on June 23, 2024 - 9:33am

    Anonymous, I had intended to ignore your post, figuring that you were either (a) a sophomore intern at the DNC, just making trouble; or (b) a person who truly refuses to recognize the differences between truth and falsity, and who therefore can't be persuaded of anything.

    But it now occurs to me that there is at least one other possibility: You could be (c) a very smart person who thinks civility is overrated and wants to demonstrate that there are some people on any blog whom one can only flame. On the off chance that this is the case, I accept your challenge.

    First, to the extent that you are asserting that there is ultimately no such thing as truth, that statement is demonstrably false. For if I ask you whether it is true, you cannot answer "yes" without contradicting yourself. You might, I suppose, claim that there is only one true statement in the universe, and it is that there are no other true statements. But once you admit that there is such a thing as a true statement, it seems highly implausible that there should be only one.

    Furthermore, I strongly suspect that you yourself do not live as if there were no such thing as truth. You apparently care something about politics, because you are participating in a discussion on a web site devoted to the idea that some ways of doing politics are better than others. Furthermore, you seem to disagree with other posts on this topic, and of course they cannot be wrong unless there is some truth from which they depart. I could go on, but I'll leave it at that to avoid being tedious.

    To the extent that you are saying that people often disagree about things in politics, then of course I and every other thinking person will agree. But I hope you (and every other thinking person) will agree that people sometimes change their minds. We shouldn't imagine citizens as if they were all just impermeable bundles of unchangeable opinions, bouncing around saying "Up with Smith" and "Down with Jones," stuck in transmit-only mode and refusing to listen to any contrary opinions. Even if that is true of some people, it is not true of all. And the only reason we have a civilization to worry about governing is because some sufficient number of citizens have always found ways to talk together, reason together, and work together toward goals they have all found important and beneficial. Disagreement is not a terminal condition; it can be cured.

    So that's why I think civility matters, and why I made my original post. Obviously, it's been a complete waste of my time unless you read it and honestly reflect on whether there isn't something about which I just might be right. I hope you will. Even if I was right with my first guess that you're a sophomore intern at the DNC.

    Anonymous on June 22, 2024 - 4:25pm

    everyone seems to be hung-up on this word 'truth' and another 'lies'...they're just 'words' not the center of our universe...a person speaks...it's either verifiable or not...what happened to freedom of speech you all yell about is your pious right?
    it's not a right of a political figure?...it's a set-up for you to call that person a liar or a ... (hey what's the word for a person who speaks the truth...a saint?) ...no that political person is a person who speaks to you...that's all...

    Anonymous on June 21, 2024 - 11:30am

    I have received mailings over the years from the RNC and deceptive and deceitful are the kindest things I could say. The "Big Lie" comes readily to mind.
    I do note you did not question CIA or behaviorism.
    The media covered protests of "citizens" outside Florida offices and there was a picture of a prominent protest circulated online that named the cast of characters and their affiliations. If I have time I will try to get a link. Maybe they weren't all RNC members but how manty ACLU members are conservatives.
    The media also had related how the two sides were flying in supporters and they mentioned corporate jets and Enron was named.
    Again I did not retain a link only what I read and while I do not feel it is the most trusted name in news I think it was CNN.

    mgrannis on June 21, 2024 - 10:59am

    Anon, the reason I suggested sophomore interns is because the best way to keep any genuine discussion of ideas from occurring is to write in a sophomoric manner. Pretensious, self-impressed, insulting, etc.

    For example, Anon, you seem to suggest that the RNC is heavily influenced by Nazis. That seems to me like an insult that you would have a hard time demonstrating in any objective, factual way. You say that Republican operatives "hopped on Enron jets" to fly to Florida for protests after the 2024 presidential elections. Do you have any support for that? Given what happened to Enron, and given the poltical use that Democrats tried to make of it, your charge is bound to be provocative to some rather large segment of the audience that Unity08 is trying to unite. If it's the truth, then of course it's good for everyone to know it and we shouldn't sweep it under the rug. But if it's just sort of a drive-by smearing of people you disagree with, I wish you'd reconsider your words.

    DWB: I don't know whether you and I would agree about "what the important issues are" and what the "silly, stupid issues" are, but let's suppose we don't. Let's suppose there is an issue I find important and you find "silly" or "stupid." If you're right and I'm wrong, shouldn't you be able to demonstrate that, rather than just throwing a conclusion at me? And aren't you more likely to build consensus with me by using a word like "unimportant" rather than words like "silly" and "stupid"? Was your comment on my post intended to influence anyone's opinion? If so, how? What ARE the important issues in your view? Are you disagreeing with my suggestion that civility toward each other would be helpful to the Unity08 movement? If so, why?

    I'm no shrinking violet, and I love a good policy debate, so disagreement is not the issue. Furthermore, I can give as good as I get where poison pens are concerned. But I just don't think it's productive for people in the Shoutbox to try to out-insult each other or out-know-it-all each other.

    Anonymous on June 21, 2024 - 9:25am

    Remember the hotly contested Florida election where a whose who of Republican politics hopped on Enron jets and flew in to protest that the dems were trying to steal the vote.
    The RNC seems to have gathered every book about Nazis, CIA and behaviorism and used the information to their advantage.
    The DNC might like to try but they are too diverse.
    I guess what I wonder is why grassroots political organizations seem to want to change from the top down.

    DWB on June 21, 2024 - 5:39am

    The problem is ya got people with silly, stupid issues and don't know what the important issues are.

    Earn Snyder on June 20, 2024 - 5:14pm

    Time to share... I am a Airforce veteran who worked for the NSA while serving in the area of communications regarding the Soviet Union... I received special training in this area of propoganda and would like to thank Unity08 for allowing me th share with you my views on this issue... infultration of this communications and others like it is taking place and will continue to divide by playing on your human natures... the oldest trick in the book... they will pit conservative against liberal... pro business against enviornmentalist... using the same human weaknesses to combine legislative reforms of the people to create gridlock in congress and muffle third party participation by flooding the media with repeat propoganda and news coverage that is not relative but hateful and divides Americans... so it is up to the American people to recognize this for what it is and will always be in a free society and thank God for that... for it is the individual that must see it for what it is... you will know truth when both side of the issue agree with it... visit www.appyp.com/fix_main.html for more truth...