Founders,
What is your position on transparency and democratic governance within Unity08?
vry,
RET
I truly appreciate all your feedback. I like the company I keep here. As for getting involved at the local level I will have to pass. My career history is a long one and quite politically volatile. I left the big city and relocated to what I thought was a quiet, peaceful village on a modest acreage in the country. I reside 90 miles from the nearest Walmart and thank God for satellite communication. I got involved in local politics and swiftly found myself attacked by our short, little senator. He investigated me and decided to send me letter attacking my position on confined animal feeding operations. Mind you, my address and phone are not publically listed. He found my address and proceeded to copy his letter to about 30 federal and state organizations....a letter that was addressed to me with my address, telephone and email address. The local commissioners proceeded to pass out copies of this letter at two commissioner meetings. This action was threatening and today I suppose I could be labeled an enemy combatant. It was uncomfortable to say the least, but nothing compared to what I dealt with in water project issues in another state. I became part of an investigation which went on for four years and was entirely stressful not to mention life threatening. Commissioners and other law makers were on the take and I was in the way. The list goes on, like working on superfund sites and having to report a failure to implement community right to know regulations; safety violations of all kinds and not just a rung on a ladder disappearing. Violations like no respiratory protection for workers at high level radioactive uranium ore processing facilities during demolition, or pipes with acid being demolished and not properly cleared seeing acid bathe workers bodies, and a total coverup involving an extraoridinarily large neurotoxic groundwater plume invading a city's water supply...naturally resulting from munitions development. This is a short list. Each time I found myself completely drowning in attacks on my character, my life and my property. So, perhaps it best to just keep typing and hoping that someone gleans some good from what we are saying here. My interest in trying to educate, or inform, has waned...and regrettably so. I will continue to do what I can but there are only about 1500 in this county anyway. Until 08 I will proceed to write and read....and I love reading everyone's comments.
I somehow missed you post of more than a month back - sorry. I'm sorry you went through the ordeal you describe - don't see it as unique, unfortunately. One of the reasons I pulled away from local politics was so that I could remain more fully focused on national issues - my then hometown was brutally conservative and I didn't feel I could effectively pursue a progressive course on national matters and retain the support of folks locally, although I was pretty widely respected in my community for my approach to local economic issues right up to the time I stepped down.
Local politics is brutal, and rightly so. This is the level at which politicians most directly touch constituents, and where constituents have the greatest power to directly affect a politician's career. It sounds as though you touched a nerve in a corrupt politician's game plan and brought down the wrath of the powerful on yourself. I would love more detail when/if Unity'08 ever develops the capacity for us to share contact info directly. I thrive on just the sort of situation you describe and would love to know more about it. Politicians such as you describe are exactly those which give public service and public servants a bad name - they should be ferreted out, exposed and eliminated (politically) as the parasitic vermin they are.
Miss your comments - wade back in sometime soon?
Mark Greene Texas Democrat in the Middle
Nutro, you are a charm! You remind me of a parochial school girl on her first night out to a honky-tonk (excuse my archaic terminology, and don't be offended. I was raised Catholic, attended parochial schools for ten years, love girls and have been in one hell of a lot of honky-tonks, so am qualified to hold forth on all above-referenced topics)...
You can wander all legs of this 08 octopus from the earliest days and you will find post after post voicing exactly the concerns you've just voiced. The reality is that Unity 08 is whatever it wants to be, a decision rendered and attended to by "the Founders" as the spirit moves them. (soundes sort of sinister, no?) I personally believe it is something Ham Jordan slapped together to placate his activist children and keep them from going wild and getting involved in something radical that might get their names in the papers...but what do I know?...
I concur in spades that it is frustrating to have your toe inside the door of something you... kind of think... maybe...might someday... be something. Certainly not something in which you have so much confidence you want to implore your friends, family, neighbors and co-workers to jump into with you.
I can tell you that you need to dive in on November 8th to your local Democratic (maybe Green? don't think so - you seem too bright for that) party with both feet and don't get out until you've achieved full satisfaction. You need to hook up with your local Sierra Club or MoveOn.org branch or whatever activist group or groups suit your passions. You also need to become a presence at City Council meetings, school board meetings, etc. A person who wants to (and can afford the time to - not me anymore) can make two full time jobs out of just involving themselves in all the opportunities available to join in and make a difference.
Here's a sneaky little math secret I'll share with you and the handful who pay attention: Only 50% of the people participate at all. Only 10% of those (5% of the total) actually show up as observers. Only 10% of those (.5% of total actually participate, decide, lead...) The moral of the story? All anyone has to do to make a huge difference is to...GET...OFF...THEIR...ASS...AND...GET...INVOLVED.
Sorry, Friday nights are never my most eloquent performances...
Yes (I feel) this is a tool for feedback for those seeking such from a more middle ground that the radical blogs out there. Information to be used as political strategy - and being used today. For it is this reason I participate in this blog and no other. For it is a new day after November 7th and those than win will have an opportunity to claim Independence regardless of the political party they used to win by speaking the truth on legislation. Breaking down legislation and pork. And when there is gridlock break it down even more until there is no gridlock or pork anymore! - Earn Snyder Author "$aving the bureaucracy - Killing the beast" Modern Progressive Independent www.appyp.com/fix_main.html
What is Unity08 doing in the political world? How are they getting a face on this effort? Who is Unity08? Is anyone reading these posts? What is the objective....to become a third party? To provide candidates for 08? To endorse candidates for 08? Who does feedback on this site? Is there a marketing plan? Television shows? How about the Colbert Report? Do we have any little sticky thingees we can give to people? Like bumper stickers...magnets...tshirts... If I tell a friend to get online what reason do I give them? What is the overall importance of this endeavor?
It feels like 08 is right around the corner and there's no plan. Oh...I think I know what is going on...everything we write is sent to Karl Rove for HIS plan...right? (just a little humor, or not)
Single and in transition to retirement gives me any time for any thing I choose and I screen the U08 site continuously from all stationery points. But enough, I want to give this topic back to RET's intent.
I think RET, Mark, TofT, myself and other Texans need a link basis as much for a state coordinated effort as for position issues. We certainly have an interesting overlapping of common and uncommon views. Perhaps the U08Web team could setup a state-by-state site for reregistaring state affiliates of U08 registered deligates (and E free, I think). We must realize that we may be supporting a movement that produces a ticket that we can not put on a Texas (or Ohio) ballot. You would have to call that a 'good faith' effort by the Texans.
Bill"for what we are together"
Bill, I'm thinking you have more time on your hands than I - could be wrong. If not, see if you can get 08 to give you my direct email - this is my authorization. Ditto Vern. I have a spectacular cartoonist I'd love to hook you up with and other thoughts to share...
Vern, thanks for your support. When we disagree we really disagree and when we agree we're like twins. The beauty of the movement, eh?
I would really like to see some of the online polling used-soon- to ascertain what we can and can't build a consensus on and use that to focus our agenda - which WE MUST HAVE!!! I'm just tickled that twelve beltway types and their progeny met at a pool party and came up with a gameplan - the rest of us weren't there. I think its pretty easy for anyone with an IQ over 50 to see that there is a great potential for consensus on matters such as campaign reform, environmental protection, public education & healthcare, fair & equitable fiscal & tax policy, etc. and damn little on Bush, Iraq, gay marriage, abortion, etc. Duh?
Do the founders feel that somehow we'll run off without them or abandon them if they choose to identify a core group of issues toward which we all intentionally choose to limit our focus in the interest of real, meaningful and lasting progress?
Bill, the objective is to win - but to win something of value. If we don't reform our political system in a way that empowers the American people - there is nothing of value to be achieved...
They are, 1. the call for an agenda in U08 and, 2. the critical issues are ignored in national governance.
I think we may have a consensus on that. However, I want to point out the wedge issues exist because they have small but powerful partisans that do care about them....there is a "who" even if it is not us.
I would like to see U08 speak in terms of centerist goals more than Positions. I think unity is in the attitude; what I once referred to as 'center facing moderation' that does not require a lot of prefab positions. It seeks to enlist the good will and hopes of 80% of those with positions to the 'left' of center and 80% of those with positions to the 'right' of center by focus their vision toward the center.
I will enjoy a U08 movement that is perfectly willing to make fun of and trivalize the 20% outside of that enevlope. U08 should see the political world the way Dilbert sees the corporate world. If I could draw, I'd be developing characters right now and licensing them to several syndicated cartoonist for nothing more than a usage agreement.
I'm with Mark Green as far as needing an agenda.
Right now, the Democrats are struggling because they can't seem to articulate what they're for, only that they are against Gearge W. Bush and his alleged "culture of corruption."
While this has a tiny chance of working for them (IMHO the American people want to vote for things, not against things) there is ZERO, NADA, ZIP chance that standing for nothing will work for a small organization that a great many people have never heard of.
I believe that we can find a concensus on many issues (if not the most divisive wedge issues, but who cares). It's the critical issues that are being ignored that I care about.
Are the founders worried that if we try to find a concensus, we will fail horribly and publicly? If so, we might as well find out now. Or our they worried that we might come to the wrong concensus?
I urge the founders to trust what they've created to come up with a viable centrist position.
--Vern
"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people." - Vice Adm. H.G. Rickover
KJ, my experience with R and D surveys made clear that the message was in the question, not the answer. Any response could be construed to their preprogramed use. Got a lot more of those from Rs than Ds, but the character is the same.
I don't check anything or sign anything, I just make sure they pay the return postage....love to send them empty envelopes. Getting a serious survey would be refreshing.
I think they have nothing to do with making their parties more open or transparent.
I am newbie so this may be a silly question so bear with me! How serious are the surveys the parties send out to you? Is this just a way to get contributions or do they really care about your opinion? My husband and I just got one each from the D's and the R's. This has never happened before. I would like to be hopeful that maybe the parties are ready to start listening but I am skeptical. Info? K Johnson
I'm not suggesting for a second that we only jump on board a sure thing - there are none. I am suggesting that any team that isn't trying to win won't. Success requires several things - planning, resources, preparation, time and execution. Absent any of these components, in what are we being asked to invest? This isn't at all fatalistic or defeatist - just pragmatic. If I didn't think there was hope I wouldn't be here...
What Unity08 is aiming to accomplish is definately an historic undertaking. I am in no way certain of us being able to get two major candidates on our ticket in '08, but I definately think we can at least make waves and probably get a bunch of nonrepresented and underrepresented centrists and moderates to see that there is a group that will speak for them... which could lead to the formation of a lasting centrist third party. All these outcomes are good.
I don't think being fatalistic is all that constructive. There are so many variables that we just wont be able to define anytime soon. Of course we all have to decide how to invest our time, but anyone who tells you that they for sure know whether Unity08 will accomplish or not accomplish any of its goals really are just blowing hot air.
I admire your patience, have no sense of how long you've been involved. Your idea of a "volunteer corps" to promote Unity08 is sound and may come about in time. It is not something I could/can lend my name, time and effort to (I do nudge a few folks this way from time to time) unless and until I feel it is worth promoting. I've no doubt already impugned my credibility within my circles of influence with my light flirtations to date - something I'm not ashamed of but something which may very well bite me in the butt going down the road...
Others in other threads have suggested that we aren't interested in winning, only in influencing the conversation. This is not the sort of time expenditure that serious folks can generally afford. And lets be honest - if you're not serrious about winning and showing a good effort at it, how much influence do you/they think we'll really have? Entrenched powers only respond to tangible threats. I want Unity08 to be a tangible threat.
First of all, we will have a hard time getting any Dems or Reps to say much of anything about us, much less work with us, for fear that they will be demonized from within their own party because this organization isn't liberal or conservative enough for them... much like how Lieberman has been treated by his own party. Hopefully by game time in 08 we'll have a bunch more delegates than we do now, and hopefully some good moderates will be irked enough by their respective parties and go with us.
Second of all, we have no agenda and many of us on here, including the guys up top, don't think we should have an agenda. You can keep trying to change our minds, but even if that does eventually work it will take time, leaving us even less than the already meager amount. I'm not an apologist in this respect, I just happen to agree with them. There are some things I would do a bit differently if I were in their shoes, but they have a whole lot more experience and knowledge about this kind of stuff than I do, and they are the ones who put the time and energy into starting it, so I am not about to try to change the whole direction of Unity 08 because I'm impatient for change.
Thirdly, we can do an online blitz already... I actually suggested in a different post that we should put together a sort of "Unity 08 Volunteer Promotional Corps", which Zach Clayton responded to favorably.
Fourthly, you're suggesting that support from Unity 08 will mean anything to these candidates. The difference between where we are and where Dean and MoveON were when they took off is, they already had a number of followers, money and/or noteriety. Dean was a pretty popular governor, MoveOn had the support of some very rich people, where as we are just getting started, have no money, relatively few members and not very much notoriety. We need to have something to give people before they will want to associate themselves with us, and so far we don't have much to give as we are just starting to get more people involved.
I would, however like to see more done NOW... which is why I recommended the whole volunteer corps idea. Hopefully they'll put something together and we can find some people willing to put some time in and spread the word. I know there is a market for it, hopefully we'll get enough people to bite and have some pull as the 08 cycle comes closer.
You say we can have no effect in 06? An agenda, so long as it doesn't over-reach and touch on divisive non-critical rather than vital issues, could easily be assembled between now and Labor Day. Cost? Zero (okay, not zero, but not much more than the daily maintenance of this site is now costing. Method - online aggregation and online polling.
Then, an online questionairre to every candidate running for any office who has an e-mail address, asking for their views/support of our agenda. Cost? (See paragraph 1)
Then, an all-out online blitz to spread the word to the entire blogosphere encouraging support for those candidates who most support us and opposing those who most combat us. Cost? You're starting to get the drift.
Assuming the "agenda" is properly assembled and the effort is properly promoted, we would, in the short amount of time remaining, have a very demonstrable effect - which is what we're after. Then we would have something to work with going into the 08 cycle, which for those of you new to the game, begins November 8, 2024!
And, with Unity 08 actually doing something NOW, that matters NOW, to voters who care NOW, about events happening NOW, this sort of activity should begin to generate the sort of involvement and financial contributions NOW that the effort will need to succeed. Ask Howard Dean, or the folks at MoveOn, or some of the other entrenched politicos on both sides of the aisle who GET IT how quickly the game can be turned when passions are properly excited...
Just a note, from one of the whiners to one of the apologists...
John, you say that we "have nothing to say" in the 2024 elections. Quite the contrary. The campaing rhetoric has already begun to spew centrism and Unity all over the place. Case in point - Mo Sen Jim Talent running ads that state that the average American is neither Red or Blue. And they don't use words like partisanship, etc. Watch closely the current chameleon politicians begin painting themselves all different colors trying to look like Unity candidates. Talent is one of the most partisan voters in Congress, over 90% straight line Republican. He won't be the only one. We are already having an effect. Just don't let yourself be fooled by the new hues. They are still devoted to their parties.
IF YOU HAVEN'T YET READ THE 'WHAT WE BELIEVE' SECTION UNDER 'ABOUT' ON THE TOP BAR, PLEASE DO SO NOW!
The difference between what the people who are giving the constructive criticism/whining and those who say they like the plan already set forth, such as the founders and yours truely, is scope. You guys want the earth and the moon, and while we're at it, the rest of the solar system, local star cluster and maybe even the galaxy too.
What you want to happen is unlikely if even at all possible within the timeframe and amount of resources available. You want to start up a party, organize local races (have you ever worked on an actual race? Are you aware of how much time, effort and money they require?), write up a platform, etc etc etc, while this organization formed with the idea that it would point its relatively meager resources, time and energy towards one singular goal.
Assuredly the founders would be singing a different tone if Warren Buffet had given that huge chunk of money to them instead of the Gates' foundation. This is not the case however.
Its even too late to start really running for local races. I don't mean this literally, of course people can still enter races, but it takes time, a network of volunteers and money to run a campaign. We are not, yet, a party, we don't have a network of skilled political volunteers and we have essentially no money. So thats realistically out of the question.
Here is a quote from the 'What We Believe' section:
"We are not looking to build a new and permanent party. That might happen, but our objective is to fix the old parties. A Unity Ticket in office for one term or even taking part in just one election can bring new ideas, new integrity and new leaders to the fore."
To the people I call whiners, why cant you just accept that you are asking for more than we have the collective ability to chew by crunch time in '08?... and what would be the purpose of a platform if we're not a party?!?!?
[I semed to have posted before finishing the part appearing below this part 2.]
The point I was making was that centrism is gaining real ground because of events -- not because of ideas ahead of events.
Now if we want to see Unity do more -- like unite America in pursuit of liberty appropriate to our productive capacity, then we will have to do more than hold a convention.
We are headed to the 2024 elections with nothing at all to say. Whoever wins in 2024 will create the issues for 2024.
If these issues do not include extreme improvement in the American culture (education, employment, environment, excellence, equality where it is fair and not where it conflicts with desired results, etc.), then we will have failed in our mission -- which is not centrism but, but to live free with good neighbors who want the same.
In other words, we should not put all our eggs in the one basket of a national on line convention. It, like a constitutional convention, may be no more than a thought in passing.
What we need now are the concrete goals already discribed in some of the best posts on this site. We need a professional team to restate them. Even an unpaid team of volunteers. .
John Gelles
Unity-now wiki My Website mailto:john.gelles@gmail.com
Human rights and how to pay for them are key to a livable world.
Dear Tolas:
Of course WE, whoever we are, owe it US (the rest of the people here on line -- looking for signs of potential American unity, purpose and benevolent future effects -- that a movement like ours might create over the months ahead), to be optimistic, enthusiastic, positive -- and to develop the products our leaders' plan suggests -- including improvements thereon of our own design.
The issues raised below, by many of the comments that wonder how we are doing, can be considered constructive criticism -- if they are taken as such.
You, Tolas, see centrism gaining ground -- and you may even see some evidence of where it might lead if it gained all the ground there was.
I see centrism protected by the extremism of our mortal enemies -- the Islamic Fascists in the crosshairs of our sights. These enemies are so far so bad, they have scared the two parties to hang closer together than they would if the internal modernization of Islam were to overcome the Jihadists in a hurry.
I even see health care cost trends so bad that between Wal-Mart and General Motors, we may soon see government do as much for health as it has done for the internet. That would bring big business together with the public interest faster than liberal speechmaking was ever able to imagine.
The sucess of unity08 is not happening on this site. It is happening on the countless blogs, podcasts, radio shows, and television shows, which are now talking about unity08 and the rise of the centrists. This movement has gotten publicity on nearly every major media outlet, and I've constantly heard it regarded as a "third way" in the 2024 presidental elections.
Unity08 has not failed. It has barely even started. It in itself doesn't not need to be bigger/smarter/morefunded than any other group, because it accepts all these groups. As we get closer to the unity convention (which is still a long way away) I see moderates from the dailykos/moveon.org, to the average Fox news/RushLimbaugh viewer, coming over (if they're not already here) and seeing what we're all about, and participating in the convention.
With that said, this is not the time to proclaim the 'falure of unity08', this is the time to all do our part, and try and create some organic growth within this community, and attempt to raise the level of debate beyond defeatism and paranoid delusions.
This movement will be what we make of it. The "founders" have laid out the groundwork, and the idea focus, but this is OUR movement. Let's make it something great.
. If you have a one-man movement, its reins are in your hands and it is open, transparent and interactive if you allow your thoughts to esacape from your crainium.
Scale your movement up to ten stout hearted men -- and I'll soon give you ten thousand more.
Not so fast songbird.
There's money and speechifying to weigh in. Perot had both of these means for recruiting and dominating his millions of voters.
We appear to have far less money and far less speechifying from the top of this movement.
So the question is raised: are the Indians here being asked to buy a pig in a poke by the Indian Chiefs?
And hundreds of other questions are also raised by the rank and file: questions that substitute for the bumper stickers we associate with a contagious political will to change a system in place -- one that may be about to give up the ghost.
What some must feel who "whine" that we are not yet bigger than Moveon, richer then Perot, and smarter than the Kennedy team we remember, is that the REASON behind our failure is the absence of an effective strategic vision at the top of the Unity movement.
Others may feel, not that there is no pig in the poke, but only that they have not been allowed to see it. They resent being kept in the dark -- in a movement to turn on the lights.
The California Lottery has none of these problems: every few days it unites millions in one common effort. The effort is to pay your taxes by lottery. The thing is more or less a success, except the taxes collected don't seem to have much improved the schools at the end of the line.
This has been a gruesome week of war in the Middle East. What passes for interactive politics here has the usual suspects repeating their usual things. Is there a way to connect the dots in every message on this thread and use them to fuel a movement for change now or in 2024? And how much money has each posting brought in?
Unity appears to be a totally free democracy. It is in a contest for control of the world with more highly organized businesses and armies. Mayor Koch used to say, "How'm I doing?" How're we doing? That seems to be the question.
Not that good. The invisible man as king may be a bad idea. Before there was an internet it might never have been tried. You see we have a real business model problem here: will revenues exceed costs long enough for us play our hand. And what is that hand?
A convention to find the American Idol who goes along with Hail to the Chief.
Looked at in the cold light of day, we may take comfort in the absence of anything better in the real world of politics or the virtual worlds of pundits, entertainers, and blogsters.
We are waiting for military outcomes. And in a long war of the kind that begain on September 11th, we may have to wait for a hundred years. .
Man, there are some big old whiners in here isn't there? If you're so sure the strategy of this organization is doomed to failure and you think your ideas are so much better what the heck are you doing here?
Darn Earn that was one of the most poetic help wanted adverts I've seen in a long time!
Cash and direct mail! The prophets will be pleased.
This political party with no agenda was called out by phrophets, a movement of the establishment, a mouth full of different philosophy which phrophets say will force a "Great Concesus" of our people to establish platform - as we will all be suprised how clear and unified Unity08 policy will become... And now we seek that web expert to create such a polling of policy for my site? As we get ready to spend cash in directmail and massive email solicitations to draw attention once my site has full "interraction" for visitors to help establish policies for a Independent movement... I think the same should happen here! www.appyp.com/fix_main2.html
I swear, some people just don't have any patience. If you guys want to form some kind of group of people and go after some lofty goals in this cycle than go for it. A group like this that really wants to go after the big stuff can't run around going after all sorts of little things. If it had a billion dollars or five million members then that would be a different story... but it probably has maybe tens of thousands of dollars and a handful of thousands of members. Choosing to pick their battles isn't chickening out, its a realistic strategy.
Its foolish to think that you can create a organization from scratch and in the same year field a nationwide campaign. A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. Patience is a virtue.
It is unfortunate, Anon, but I think you're right here. What is sadly humorous is that scattered throughout we see suggestions that we should send our donations and support the "founders'" vision when they choose, just like the major parties - to be silent on who gets what, where it goes, the real agenda or decision making process, etc. - and unwilling to respond to the many well thought-out initiatives put forward by the members.
It will be interesting to watch the slow downward spiral of this effort as it becomes clear that for the first time in a long while something new was almost attempted, but that its promise attracted a higher level of thinkers than traditional political movements - one sufficiently astute that it refused to fund a pig in a poke...
Mark,
The filings with the FEC & IRS should be sufficiently blunt to understand. Unity08 as a legal entity has NO intent of influencing the 06 election cycle by direct action.
A couple of other founders have posted but the content was pretty minimal.
With these folks you have to read between the lines and look carefully at what there sentences say such as in response to who runs Unity, "We'd like to say the members..." which sounds so sweet but the second part of the sentence essentially says, all final decisions are by the board which is a small subset of the founders.
Same goes for how the agenda will be shaped, starts off sounding like it will be the members, but read closely!
I must say - the founders (note the lack of capitalization at this point) is deafening! What are we, the masses to infer from the silence of those who would be our leaders?
Your said: "Almost immediately the immigration issue exploded and we thought the name would be seen by many as primarily about that issue.
CLUE TO YOU. Immigration will be the prime issue in 06 and 08. You should have stuck with the original name.
